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Religion & Philosophy
By Phage (Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:00:10 AM EST) (all tags)
Tautology ahoy !

The Times1 had an article today that debunks alternative medicine. Then asks the Prince of Wales to back it. <smirk>

1There's only one Times.



Link.

"The documents, published by the Prince and his Foundation for Integrated Health, misrepresent scientific evidence about therapies such as homoeopathy, acupuncture and reflexology, say the authors of a new evaluation of alternative treatments.

In a letter to The Times, Edzard Ernst, Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter, and Simon Singh, a science writer and broadcaster, call on the Prince to recall the publications, one of which was produced with a £900,000 grant from the Department of Health."

Soooo, we have NHS funds being squandered on witchcraft in the 21st Century. (Paging Breaker.)

"Professor Ernst and Dr Singh say the Prince accepted the importance of “rigorous scientific evidence” to alternative medicine, in an article he wrote for The Times in 2000, and point out that more than 4,000 research studies have since been published"

I see this as a win-win. They compel Prince Charles to either renege on his scientific or alternative credibility, with the added benefit of maybe clawing some cash back for the NHS. NB The sooner Kevin Rudd takes Australia to a republic the better. (Paging cam). There is a great summary.

A Guide for Patients Chiropractic: used in disorders of musculoskeletal system such as spine, neck, shoulder problems. It may also be used for asthma

Professor Ernst: no good evidence for anything other than back pain

Acupuncture: increasingly used in trying to overcome addictions to alcohol, drugs and smoking.

The reliable evidence suggests it does not work for addictions

Cranial therapists: the conditions they treat range from acute to chronic health problems

No good evidence for any of this

Homoeopathy: most often used to treat chronic conditions such as asthma; eczema; fatigue disorders; migraine; menopausal problems; irritable bowel syndrome; Crohn’s disease; allergies; repeated infections; depression.

Data do not show homoeopathic remedies to be more than placebos

Reflexologists: work with conditions including pain, chronic fatigue, sinusitis, arthritis, digestive problems, stress-related disorders and menopausal symptoms.

No good evidence for any of this

Reiki: used for physical, mental and emotional conditions

There is no good evidence that Reiki is effective for any condition

Shiatsu: used for a wide range of conditions, from injuries to more general symptoms of poor health

No good evidence for any of this

Manipulative therapies: offer advantages over conventional treatments for lower back pain.

A Cochrane review concludes that there is no evidence that this spinal therapy is superior to other standard treatments"

< Life... | "There, you see that?" >
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Yes by Herring (4.00 / 2) #1 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:41:41 AM EST
The NHS is already spending tens of millions of unproven shit like homeopathy and management consultancy. Of course, the tabloids would have you believe that there's not enough money for Mrs. Respectible-mother-of-three to have Herceptin because it's going on sex changes and asylum seekers.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey


It's not ? by Phage (2.00 / 0) #3 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:52:12 AM EST
I don't know whether that's true or not. Isn't total population steady ?

I just think that any money given to these witch-doctors rather than a genuine treatment is a travesty. Insurance premiums would also drop.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Reflexology by Merekat (4.00 / 1) #2 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:50:03 AM EST
Often cheaper than a foot massage at a fancy spa and should be considered in that light;)



Of course by Phage (2.00 / 0) #4 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:54:25 AM EST
Lots of these things feel good. They just don't have any medicinal purposes, and should not have any public funding applied to them even indirectly.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

The thing is by Herring (4.00 / 1) #5 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:09:32 AM EST
there is an argument (made by Dr Phil Hammond) that:
  1. The placebo effect is real
  2. Doctors are forbidden from giving placebos
  3. But they can refer to a "complimentary" therapist which has the same effect
However, my view is that this is all very well until these people start saying they can prevent malaria, treat HIV etc. Which they do.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

No argument about placebo effect by Phage (2.00 / 0) #6 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:14:02 AM EST
But the alternative methods tend to be very expensive, and in some cases actually quite dangerous as they are unregulated, and the practicioners wilfully ignorant.

Bring back the ducking stool !

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Homeopathy should be very cheap by Herring (4.00 / 1) #8 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:18:12 AM EST
given the cost of the ingredients.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

The Placebo Effect may be a placebo effect by lm (4.00 / 2) #25 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:30:19 AM EST
That is to say, it may not be real.

The mind boggles. How would one actually do a double blind study on a placebo?


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Double blind on placebo. by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #28 Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:06:51 PM EST
Should be easy. One group gets told they are receiving a "magical super drug". The other are told they get "an ordinary sugar cube (HFCS in the states)". Follow the standard procedures.

Wumpus

[ Parent ]

That's not a double blind experiment by lm (2.00 / 0) #29 Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:07:00 PM EST
In fact, it isn't even a single blind experiment.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

True. by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #30 Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 08:36:37 PM EST
You would need to split each into two groups. Note that this would likely be completely unethical as the "super magic potion" should really be replaced with "medicine proven to work on your condition".

Wumpus

[ Parent ]

Placebo therapies by gpig (4.00 / 3) #7 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:17:06 AM EST
I wrote a letter to the Green Party just before the last Scottish election about this, as the only part of their manifesto I didn't agree with was support for alternative therapies.

The response was surprisingly well argued. The email I got didn't claim that alternative therapies cure people, or that there was any scientific evidence for them. Rather, the institute they were supporting used these therapies as a last resort -- they take patients who have tried all the conventional treatments.

For these patients, they claimed that the outcomes were the same as normal hospital treatment, but the patients were happier, presumably because they were still being 'treated'.

I'm uneasy about this because, well, I'm a scientist. On the other hand, it makes some desperately ill people happy. As long as it's not used instead of real cures, I suppose I can live with it.
---
(,   ,') -- eep
"This option is deprecated, as it is conceptually flawed." -- man psql


That's the only thing that puts me off by Herring (2.00 / 0) #9 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:19:17 AM EST
the Green Party. Admittedly I haven't read their manifesto so there may be other things that put me off.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

Scottish Green Party by gpig (2.00 / 0) #10 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:28:53 AM EST
What I'm saying probably doesn't apply to where you are, the Scottish Greens are very different to the English one, as I understand it. (No idea what the Welsh do, maybe they get beaten up by Plaid Cymru for using green as their colour.)

I thought their argument for alternative therapies was fair (that they are good placebos), and I was happy that they don't think these things should be used instead of conventional treatment.

Though I just read Phage's comment above -- didn't realise that alternative therapies were expensive, I'd assumed the opposite ....
---
(,   ,') -- eep
"This option is deprecated, as it is conceptually flawed." -- man psql
[ Parent ]

I didn't think they were that expensive by Herring (2.00 / 0) #12 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:36:03 AM EST
Since the whole 10 years to train a doctor thing doesn't apply.

IIRC, 7 minutes (or whatever it is) with a GP costs the NHS about £22. An hour with a charlatan is probably more like £40 (OK, management consultants are much more expensive).

I think the argument is not with the cost of the individual therapies, but that when there is not enough money to pay for the "real" medicine (which will always be the case in an NHS type system) that any money at all is being spent on this stuff.

There is another argument (which, again, I think Dr Phil has made) that it's worth the money to get these patients to fuck off and leave the GPs free to treat people with real illnesses.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

It's not just the consultation by Phage (2.00 / 0) #13 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:41:01 AM EST
It's the never-ending 'prescription' of potions. They are not cheap.
Again, it's not worth a single penny, and is in fact discrediting rational thought in general, and the medical profession in particular leading to greater risk taking and public antipathy to real issues.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Indeed by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #14 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:45:17 AM EST
That is an excellent argument for not banning alternative therapies outright. It isn't sufficient for spending scarce public resources on them.

[ Parent ]

I see your point by Phage (2.00 / 0) #11 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:35:57 AM EST
But disagree. I think there is great harm to the medical profession and rational thought by the effective endorsement of the 'principles' espoused by these head cases.
This undermines public trust in mainstream medicine making it more likely that they will take more of these unregulated 'potions' and therefore take more risks. It indirectly undermines public confidence in science generally, turning back everything since the Renaissance.
And, of course, it takes funds from treatments that could genuinely save lives.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

That's part of a much bigger argument by Herring (2.00 / 0) #15 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:50:24 AM EST
Are you willing to prevent people from spending what is ultimately their own money on anything they choose - regardless of whether it's valid or not.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

It's not 'their' money by Phage (2.00 / 0) #16 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:01:02 AM EST
When it is funded by either the NHS or Insurance funds. The costs are then borne by either the taxpayer or the premium payer.

I would prevent any such superstition from being funded in any way. If was truly coming out of their own pockets for their bene gris-gris, that would be fine.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

It is their money by Herring (2.00 / 0) #17 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:22:21 AM EST
They are the taxpayer. Unfortunately, a large enough proportion of taxpayers do believe in this shit to legitimise the relatively small amount of spending.

That's why I say it's a much larger argument: if, in a democracy, the people vote to spend their money on something irrational, should they be allowed to?

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

Ooooh by Phage (2.00 / 0) #18 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:35:16 AM EST
Unless I missed the memo, no-one has voted on this at all. This has never been part of a party platform. This is nothing more than a policy and could be as easily over turned. However, the longer it is left in place, the more the lunacy is endorsed and the harder it will be to remove.

Any such policy would never make it to a vote, due to the political fall-out of having witchcraft on your platform. I hope.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Or to put it another way by Phage (2.00 / 0) #19 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:37:24 AM EST
Vox populi =/ vox Dei.
There is a duty on Government, or Whithall, to wisely invest the assets of the country.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Is there? by Herring (4.00 / 1) #21 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:46:33 AM EST
I thought that in a democracy there is a duty on the government to represent the people. Even if they are idiots.

I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

Another good question by Phage (2.00 / 0) #23 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:24:57 AM EST
I can only hope that there is a duty not to spend it all on beer, hookers and witch-doctors.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

I fear you are wrong by Herring (4.00 / 2) #20 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:44:21 AM EST
I suspect that a majority of taxpayers would be in favour of the government paying for alternative therapies (have you seen a newspaper "health" section recently?). If it were a sure-fire vote winner to oppose the policy, don't you think the Tories would be shouting about it? They are hardly hippy-friendly.

Finding reliable survey results on the topic might be difficult though.

Personally, I don't think the problem is that the government is giving people what they want, the problem is that people want it.


I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

Exactly by Phage (2.00 / 0) #22 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:21:32 AM EST
the problem is that people want it.

If I were in charge, I'd not let them have it.
That answers that question ! I'll get my black shirt on later.

Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

Waffle by yicky yacky (4.00 / 12) #24 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 08:23:42 AM EST

IIRC, the last study on acupuncture didn't show that it didn't work, but rather that the 'bollocks component' (scientific terms ahoy!) had no necessary basis to it. Going from memory (thus risking inaccuracy, but I can't be arsed to look it up), the control group showed an improvement of ~20%, whereas both the 'official acupuncture' and the 'acupuncture-but-ignoring-the-official-theory / let's-stick-pins-in-random-places' groups both showed equivalent improvement rates of around 43%.

There are statistical and measurement problems with all these studies that make it hard to take anything conclusive from them, but I found that study's result interesting because it seemed to show something that I think critics (including myself) often overlook.

The problem with alternative therapies is not that they work / don't work, but that they often get a lot of things right which have nothing to do with the treatment being peddled or the bullshit to which they're shackled; that they can often get good results but for the "wrong" reasons.

It's been theorized, for some time, by clinical physicians, that sticking needles in people may be beneficial for a number of different reasons: distributed release of endorphins and antihistamines; targetted muscle stimulation; 'distractive' pain taking attention away from the area of concern etc. -- none of which has anything to do with chi, or meridians, or the build-up of some nebulous 'negative energy'. Likewise, the infamous 'Brain Gym' may be good at getting kids to calm down and concentrate (breaks are good, exercise is good, drinking water is good, the placebo-belief in the method can be motivating), but the reasons they peddle for its efficacy are patently nonsense.

All of these things succeed by dabbling in an area about which science has little to say. Science doesn't care whether you're doing yoga, or calisthenics, or going to the gym, or swimming, or orienteering, or canoeing: some combination of relaxation / concentration / exercise is known to be beneficial; whichever one you do is borderline-irrelevant, provided you do one. So people find something which works for them and then make the mistake of buying into its tenets without necessarily critically appraising why it might be 'working'.

Furthermore, one area in which alternative medicine is, quite frankly, taking conventional medicine to the cleaners is 'patient care'. If a person has to wait four days for a doctor's appointment, at which they end up sitting in the waiting room for the best part of an hour before being brusquely and dismissively interacted-with and then shown the door in a manner more akin to a sheep dip, then goes to an alternative therapist who is on-time, quiet, offers cups of tea, spends an hour "diagnosing" by essentially talking about them / their worries and getting them to relax, it's no surprise that, because the "bedside manner" is better, people react more favourably to the latter regardless of what it is they happen to be peddling. Again, they've got something right but for irrelevant or wrong reasons.

There are two types of selfish person in this world: the type who's time is precious and the type who's enjoyment is precious. I'm in the first camp, so I don't care if a doctor's session is brief because I don't want to waste time any more than they do. I don't need the mollycoddling, or necessarily respond particularly well to it, because I know it's largely irrelevant to whether the antibiotic will work. Also, I'm not in the group of people who'll go to the doctors just because "they've been feeling a bit run-down recently". An awful lot of people are not in the same camp as me, though; they're in the other one; and it's these people for whom alternative therapies may 'work' in some sense.

It reminds me of something Sam Harris said to Richard Dawkins in a discussion over the 'new atheism', which is that, because religion is pretty-much the only game in town which seems to address / respect / dignify / celebrate / provide-a-framework-for spiritual or numinous experiences, it sometimes makes people like them (Dawkins and Harris) look a bit drab, lacking and clinical in comparison, even though there's no necessary reason for numinous experiences and any given religion to be shackled together.

It's the same thing with these alternative therapies. Until people can get what they're getting from the alternative therapy process elsewhere, a large body of them will always keep going, because it's the only game in town (apart from £1000-an-hour consultations on Harley Street) where you can have an intimate, relaxing chat as part of the process, or where the "doctor" actually seems to give a toss.

The last issue is whether it should be subsidised by the NHS. I have a natural revulsion to the idea but can see that, in the case of last-chance patients as mentioned by gpig, it may offer them some respite. The problem then is that there seems to be no natural limit on 'scope creep'. Once you've allowed it on principle, at what point are you allowed to say 'No, because that's a total waste of money'? I'm pretty certain we oughtn't to be paying for everyone's psychotherapy sessions by proxy, which is what a lot of 'alternative consultations' are -- and, if we were going to do that, perhaps we should be paying psychotherapists instead of quacks homeopaths.


----
12 days left ...


+1FP [n/t] by Herring (4.00 / 1) #26 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:23:21 AM EST


I'm English, and as such I crave disappointment. - Bill Bailey
[ Parent ]

I concur with herring +1 FP (nt) by Phage (4.00 / 1) #27 Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:56:26 AM EST


Founder member Golgafrinchan 'B' Ark
[ Parent ]

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